Interview with Okabayashi Sensei

Interview with Okabayashi Sensei, founder and headmaster of Daito Ryu Hakuho Kai, and Rod Ulher as interpreter.

(We would like to dearly thank Okabayashi Sensei and Rod Uhler for taking the time to make this interview with us) This interview is for viewing only. It may not be reproduced or reused in any other public forum or medium without the proper consent and authorisation of the Koryukan Dojo and the Hakuho Kai.

Q. Sensei when and where were you born?
A. I was born on June 27, 1949 in Ashia City, Japan

Q. When did you first get involeved in martial arts?
A. I started training in Shito Ryu Karate when I was about 15 years olds, and trained in that style for about 6 years.

Q. When did you begin training in Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu?
A. I was about 21 years old when I started training with Takuma Hisa Sensei. So it was in 1970.

Q. Why did you stop your karate training and how did you begin your training in Daito Ryu?
A. There was an incident I had with some a Yakuza fellow. I was out one night with my girlfriend, and he started being rude to her. I intervened and asked him to stop, after which he became aggressive and attacked me with a bokuto. Since I practiced karate, I was quiet strong with my fists and knew I could make a serious injury if I punched but I did not want to hurt him badly, so all I could do is block the strikes of the stick with my arms. Finally he gave up and left me alone. However, after this fight my arms were swollen and hurting for two months. After this incident I thought hard to myself, what if that was a sword and not a stick I was attacked with, I would have lost my arms. So I began to search for a martial art that would teach me how to defeat the sword. After about a year of looking for a school I came across Hisa Takuma Sensei's group, I found the things they were practicing very interesting, Hisa Sensei had traditional technique so I asked him if I could study under him. He accepted me and so I began my training.

Q. How long did you train with Hisa Sensei?
A. I trained under him until the late seventies, up to the point when Hisa Sensei became frail and his son asked him to move to Tokyo so he could take care of him.

Q. How was your training with Hisa Sensei?
A. With time Hisa Sensei became frail and he could not move very well. So he would usually teach by speaking and explaining how to do the movements, and demonstrating them slowly. Senior students of Hisa Sensei's and me came together and formed what is now know as the Takumakai, and practiced the techniques, working them out under Hisa Sensei's direction. The training was good and we worked hard. At the same time I felt there was something missing in the movements, there was some element that wasn't there. I endured these feelings and continued my training. After this period Hisa Sensei moved to Tokyo upon request of his son. So his son would be able to take care of him. When this happened I was going to quit my training. So I went to see Hisa Sensei to ask him his permission to quit. When I told him of my feelings, he told me 'no, you must continue to practice, I will introduce you to a very good teacher', and wrote me a letter of recommendation to go see Takeda Tokimune Sensei in Hokkaido.

Q. When did you receive your kyoju dairi from Hisa Sensei?
A. I received it in 1976.

Q. So after the recommendation from Hisa Sensei, you went to train with Takeda Sensei?
A. That's correct. I went to Abashiri, Hokkaido to learn from Takeda Sensei. From him at first I learned basic techniques, the shoden. The Takumakai did not have these basic ones; they practiced more advanced waza.

Q. When did you first meet Takeda Sensei?
A. Twenty five years ago, so it must have been 1977.

Q. So at that time you were part of the Takumakai?
A. That's correct. Because I went with to study under Soke (Takeda Tokimune Sensei) with Hisa Sensei's recommendation, in Japanese thinking it was as if I was learning from both teachers at the same time. I took the shoden waza and brought them back to the Takumakai.

Q. How was your training with Takeda Sensei?
A. I was in pretty fit shape at that time because I did a lot of skiing and played a lot of soccer. Although feeling strong, I put myself on a 100-day program before going to see Soke (Takeda Sensei) to prepare myself for training with him. When I went to see him, I was fortunate because Soke quit his work right before I got there. We would have one on one training in the morning, from 5 A.m. to 8 A.m., then a break until lunch, more one on one training after lunch until the evening. And then there was an evening class with other students. The first morning I came to the dojo at 5, and Soke was already there, so the next day I decided to come 15 minutes earlier, at 4:45, to be there before Takeda Sensei. The following day, I came to the dojo at 4:45 and Soke was already there. So, next morning I showed up at 4:15, and getting there before Soke I felt some pride about this. However, the next day, I came at 4:15 and Soke was there before me again. I did not know the reason for this, but this continued to go on until we started training at 3 A.m. At this point, Takeda Sensei's wife came out and said to me, 'You can't come into the dojo before Soke, he needs his time to train and it is the only time he can train by himself before teaching.'

When training with Soke, I was never allowed to throw or apply a technique on him, I was always the uke in our one on one training. Takeda Sensei taught me by doing the techniques on me over and over again. This was very hard on me at first, can you be uke for 1 hour? One on one? But it was 3 hours in the morning and more after lunch! In the evening Soke had a class with other students, and I got to practice and apply techniques on others that I learned during the day with Soke.

After the third day with Takeda Sensei, I started to feel the toll of the training, because it was so severe since I was always the uke. But although growing quiet weary, I decided I was there to train and persevered, and in a short time I got used to this kind of training. Practicing with Soke, I was given permission to teach the Takumakai up to the nikajo level, sixty techniques.

At the time we were about 15 students at Soke's dojo, some of the known names being: Arisawa Sensei, Kato Sensei, Saito Sensei, the sempai was Akimoto Sensei who passed away at the age of 85.

Q. How many years did you train with Takeda Tokimune Sensei?
A. 13 years.

Q. Sensei, you also learned Ono Ha Itto Ryu from Takeda Sensei?
A. That's correct. I was one of only six people to be taught Itto Ryu by Soke. He chose to teach it only to people with a good heart, because through kenjutsu you can better understand jujutsu.

Q. When did you receive your certificates from Soke?
A. I recieved the shihan license in Daito Ryu and menkyo in Ono Ha Itto Ryu in 1985 from Takeda Sensei.

Q. Sensei how was the Hakuho Kai born?
A. When training with Hisa Sensei I felt that there was older body movement involved behind the techniques. And when training with Soke, I saw that he absolutely did not do any kind of turning and always moved in one line, many of his students were making turns and circles and did not do the techniques how Soke would do them. For example many would jump, or rise into ippon dori instead of releasing (Sensei demonstrates). From watching Soke I knew this was not correct, I followed closely how Takeda Sensei would move and researched the techniques. At the time I was with the Takumakai and taught these things to my own branch dojo. With time it became a difficult situation because other people were doing and teaching techniques in a different way, and did not have the same idea. Even before Takeda Sensei passed away, there were already disputes about who will be the next Soke, and about this license and that license. Takeda Sensei did not want to have any part of this and did not want me involved in it either. He told me to stay out of all the politics, and told me to go on my own and not stay with an organization. He wanted me teach the techniques he taught me. With his encouragement I decided to form the Hakuho Kai.

Q. Sensei how did you research the techniques and develop your method of teaching?
A. I watched very closely how Soke moved, he was always moving in hitoemi, one line. I looked at old paintings of the bushi, their bodies were also always partrayed as being in a hitoemi position because that is how the bushi moved. I read old history texts about life in old Japan and how things worked back them. Across all of this I did not find anything in particular, but there were hints here and there. Then, when researching the techniques, we had pictures (Asahi News pictures taken by Hisa Takuma when Takeda Sokaku was teaching there) of the beginning of a technique and the end of a technique, but could not make certain techniques work. I asked myself why have a technique that doesn't work? So by applying my knowledge from Soke and my research, applying hitoemi and gravity principles I could make those techniques effective and efficient.

Q. Sensei, what does 'Hakuho Kai' mean, and why did you chose this name?
A. Translated 'Hakuho' means 'white phoenix'. You see in Japan's history there were a lot of different eras, like the 'Edo' era, the 'Meiji' era and so on.... If you go back through history, there was an era called 'Hakuho'. It was a time when the Japanese decided to stop outside influence from coming into Japan, it was an era when Japanese were protecting Japanese culture from outside influence. I want to preserve Daito Ryu in it's traditional form and keep the old movements of the bushi behind the techniques, and to not let modern body movement influence it. This is why I chose the name Hakuho Kai.

Q. How was Hisa Sensei as a person?
A. His was a very interesting person. He liked to try many news things. For example learned how to fly and airplane, and played golf when it was not as popular as now. He enjoyed life and was a very good, kind man.

Q. How was Takeda Tokimune Sensei as a person?
A. He had a very good heart. After the war, Soke was a police officer and later became a detective. He was a very suspicious person, always suspicious of every one so this must have helped him being a detective. He probably inherited some of these traits from his father, Takeda Sokaku.

Q. Did Soke speak a lot about his father? Tell many stories?
A. Soke never called his father by saying 'father', he always refered to him as Takeda Sokaku. He did not really think of him as a father. When Soke was 10, 11 years old, Takeda Sokaku was approaching 70 years of age. Soke learned kenjutsu from his mother until 5 years old, and after the age of 5 he learned from his father. Takeda Sokaku trained him very hard, he did not have techniques to teach specifically to children. He would have Soke attack him with a sword, he would disarm Tokimune and the sword would go flying into the snow. So at 5 years old Soke would have to go searching through the snow with his bare hands for the sword, pick it up and attack his father. Once again the sword would fly into the snow, and it went on again and again. So this is just and example of how Takeda Sokaku would treat and train his son. It was difficult for Soke to think of him as his father. One day Takeda Sokaku was sleeping, and Soke wanted to put a cover over him to keep him warm. Sokaku, always being in a state of awerness, even when sleeping, grabbed his dagger and went to stab Soke in heart just as Soke was about to put the cover over Sokaku. Soke was barely quick enough to move to the side, got off the line and the dagger that was going for his heart stabbed him in the shoulder. Afterwards Takeda Sokaku scolded his son severely. Saying: ' What kind of a fool are you?! You should never carelessly come up one someone by surprise, it is your fault that you were stabbed; if you would have been aware I would not have cut you!' That's the kind of man Takeda Sokaku was so it must have had an effect on Soke, so he did not feel as Sokaku being his father.

Q. Did Soke use dan rankings when teaching?
A. Yes, Takeda Sensei used the dan ranking system that originally comes from judo. He a gave out other licenses like the menkyo and shihan license I have. Takeda Sensei also gave two kyuoju dairi, one to Suzuki Sensei and Minamo Sensei, who have both passed away. When giving dan grades, in reality Soke never gave past fifth dan.

Q. Sensei are dan rankings used in Hakuho Kai?
A. That's correct, we use the dan ranking system. It is important to note that permission to teach is not the same thing as a rank. In Hakuho Kai one must have a good heart and good intentions to have permission to teach.

Q. How many Hakuho Kai dojo are there Sensei?
A. Let's see, there are three in Italy, one in England, three in the U.S., one in Canada, and fourteen in Japan, in the Osaka and Fukuoka areas. So that's four in North America, four in Europe, and fourteen in Japan. Making that 22 dojo and about 420 people in all. I am happy all of our members are good normal people and have the right samurai spirit.

Q. Thank you very much Sensei, and thank you very much Rod for doing a great job at translating.
A. Thank you.

By now it was getting time to go and show Okabayashi Sensei and Rod a little bit of Montreal. We thanked him and Rod Ulher, his assistant and interpreter dearly for their time and set on our way.

This interview is for viewing only. It may not be reproduced or reused in any other public forum or medium without the proper consent and authorisation of the Koryukan Dojo and the Hakuho Kai.